Our Turkish readers want to debate the Genocide
After the airing of the PBS program about the Armenian Genocide last week, one of our Turkish readers in Rode Island attempted to justify how such a program could have been aired.
Here is his log which is found at: http://americanturk.blogspot.com/2006/04/political-bullshit-sell-out-i-mean-pbs.html
Keep in mind while reading this that this was written by a Turk who clearly hates Armenians (at least from the tone of his writings I get that feeling). It should also give you a good understanding why you don't debate with such people. The time you spend to change their way of thinking could be better spent on talking to people who have a better sense of logic and can draw conclusions from reading facts and not looking for something that is not or ever has been.
Where you see notations in brackets "[...]" these are my comments.
Political Bullshit Sell-out... I Mean PBS: "Armenian Genocide" Airs in RI
We petitioned, we faxed, we e-mailed and we telephoned PBS, albeit fruitlessly, but (judging from the closing credits) the Armenian community is wealthy beyond belief [yes we are]. Hey money talks and bullshit walks, as the saying goes... The number of financial contributors who made this program possible, is staggering. But the truth cannot be purchased, it's not for sale [very true, though Turkey has disproved this many times in the past], unless you're PBS... The "panel discussion" [notice the quotes, which to me means that it’s not really a panel discussion, but a propaganda ploy] which Turks feverishly petitioned PBS to air immediately following "Armenian Genocide", was not broadcast in Rhode Island [or the most densely populated Armenian community in America, Los Angeles, nor was the actual program] . I can't speak for other cities [it was in Florida and according to a non-Armenian friend who didn't know much of the Genocide, he said that the person taking Turkey's side made a fool of himself. It helped convince him that what was shown in the program was probably accurate], and would appreciate feedback from other Amerikan Turks.
Personally, speaking only for myself and for no other Turks, I don't give a squirt of piss about Armenians... UNTIL someone.. ANYONE outside of Turkey.. sheds a single tear or lights a single candle for the many millions of Turks who lost their lives during World War One [I wonder how many people outside of America shed a tear for a single American who died during World War One. I can tell you that there were many Turks who shed tears during and after their Armenian neighbored were butchered by those ordered to carry out Turkey’s leaders orchestrated slaughter of the Armenian population]. Apparently, when an Empire is destroyed and when those who still draw breath in it's aftermath, FIGHT for their survival, for their existence, for their future, it's called genocide by those who were complicit in the initial destruction [yes it is, when you attempt to wipe out an ethnic group from your population]. How trite.
Ironically, when the world's biggest super-power invades and destroys a relatively defenseless country which was never proven to be a threat, it's called liberation [I'm with you on this one]. Where were said liberators during World War One? Too pre-occupied with land-grabbing in Anatolia, I suppose, to notice or even care about how many inhabitants of Asia Minor were dying, be they Turk or Armenian [yup and then after, in hopes of grabbing more land, they jumpped in bed with Turkey so they could use them to have a hold in the region, thus the price to pay their prostitues (Turkey) is to not recognize reality (the Armenian Genocide)].
Who in the world mourns or commemorates the deaths of the millions of Turks who fell during WWI? during the Wars of Independence? I'll tell you: Only Turks, and they're not in the habit of projecting their loss upon others or demanding apologies or propagating myths or sticking any of it up anyones ass or down anyones throat [because all those deaths were a direct result to their governments own actions, so no one owes them an apology but their govenrment].
April 24th... May it pass quickly [yea, for your type, it's nothing but a bad dream that you just want to wake up from].
Here's an "Action Alert" for my Turkish readers. Vote "YES" and please copy this to as many like-minded people as possible: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12412125/ [and for those who don’t want to see a debate over a crime that was proven in two courts of law, one in Turkey and the other in Germany, vote NO]
Just so this is not too long a read, here are some samples of comments to this post:
Gulay said...
"Blame who you want but primarily blame our Govt as they never seem to want to open the records and allow what really happened to be brought to light. I do agree with you though but hope that eventually the Armenian influence in the US will reduce like the IRA did for the Brits…. I know that Mustafa Kemal wanted National Unity but should that include elimination of minority culture, I believe that's not what he wanted and to me the problem is intolerance and too much focus on religion and ethnicity since 1938!! There were/are faults on both sides but once again the Turkish Govt is losing the PR war. Armenians have a country but they seem to want more, like the Greek Cypriots, that is MONEY. Open the vaults, let the historians in and lets get the real story of what happened…"
4/25/2006 1:00 AM
metin said...
The openness in which these and similar issues can be intelligently discussed is what's missing in Turkish politics. There are many taboo subjects yet in this day and age. Until freedom and democracy is truly exercised in Turkey, Armenians and others will have an excuse for whatever they wish to highlight. We need to eliminate these objections so the issues can be dealt with objectively.
4/25/2006 3:15 AM
Oguz said...
"I enjoyed reading this. However, I would like to quote law #36 from the '48 laws of power': "By acknowledging a petty problem you give it existence and credibility. The more attention you pay an enemy, the stronger you make him."
I realize that this a problem with no simple solution, but the moment we Turks mention past atrocities of other countries as a response to the Armenians, we are in effect giving them credibility, and unfortunately helping their cause.
Having said that, I did vote on the poll, and will tell my friends about it too. :)"
4/25/2006 5:21 AM
Celal said...
"…What is unfortunate is that perhaps some form of national recognition of the catastrophic dimensions surrounding the events of 1915 could have be acknowledged by the Turkish state had the Armenians not continued to play big power politics with this issue."
4/25/2006 6:03 AM
PJB said...
"…I believe the genocide happened. Sure, Turks were killed, too, but not a million of them, and not by the Armenians. It was almost a hundred years ago when Turkey was the Ottoman Empire. They need to live up to their past and live up to their history.
Turkey is poised to play a huge role on the world stage, if only they have the confidence to be as big as they are, with all the warts and skeleton-filled closets that every other major nation has.
No more censorship laws and no more stubborn denial."
4/25/2006 10:35 AM
Murat Altinbasak said...
"I've received a lot of e-mails on top of these comments already...Man... One thing is certain: Everyone marches to a different drum beat on this issue. No two PsOV are exactly compatible. It's not black and white, by any measure... Certainty number two: I agree with all of those who support the open and unfettered dialogue, namely in Turkey. As Pete points out, laws against "insulting Turkishness" need to go. "
4/25/2006 11:46 AM
Anonymous said...
"What would you do to Fatma Muge Gocek, Halil Berktay, Fikret Adanir, Taner Akcam, Elif Shafak and Orhan Pamuk for speaking if not on behalf of Armenians at least for democracy in Turkey? Are they bought by Armenians too? Or do they have Armenian blood in them? You guys can't even handle a fact that Ataturk's daughter may have been an orphaned Armenian, and want to make the rest of the world believe that Turks don't have hatred towards Armenians? Yeah right. "
4/26/2006 3:14 PM
Here is his log which is found at: http://americanturk.blogspot.com/2006/04/political-bullshit-sell-out-i-mean-pbs.html
Keep in mind while reading this that this was written by a Turk who clearly hates Armenians (at least from the tone of his writings I get that feeling). It should also give you a good understanding why you don't debate with such people. The time you spend to change their way of thinking could be better spent on talking to people who have a better sense of logic and can draw conclusions from reading facts and not looking for something that is not or ever has been.
Where you see notations in brackets "[...]" these are my comments.
Political Bullshit Sell-out... I Mean PBS: "Armenian Genocide" Airs in RI
We petitioned, we faxed, we e-mailed and we telephoned PBS, albeit fruitlessly, but (judging from the closing credits) the Armenian community is wealthy beyond belief [yes we are]. Hey money talks and bullshit walks, as the saying goes... The number of financial contributors who made this program possible, is staggering. But the truth cannot be purchased, it's not for sale [very true, though Turkey has disproved this many times in the past], unless you're PBS... The "panel discussion" [notice the quotes, which to me means that it’s not really a panel discussion, but a propaganda ploy] which Turks feverishly petitioned PBS to air immediately following "Armenian Genocide", was not broadcast in Rhode Island [or the most densely populated Armenian community in America, Los Angeles, nor was the actual program] . I can't speak for other cities [it was in Florida and according to a non-Armenian friend who didn't know much of the Genocide, he said that the person taking Turkey's side made a fool of himself. It helped convince him that what was shown in the program was probably accurate], and would appreciate feedback from other Amerikan Turks.
Personally, speaking only for myself and for no other Turks, I don't give a squirt of piss about Armenians... UNTIL someone.. ANYONE outside of Turkey.. sheds a single tear or lights a single candle for the many millions of Turks who lost their lives during World War One [I wonder how many people outside of America shed a tear for a single American who died during World War One. I can tell you that there were many Turks who shed tears during and after their Armenian neighbored were butchered by those ordered to carry out Turkey’s leaders orchestrated slaughter of the Armenian population]. Apparently, when an Empire is destroyed and when those who still draw breath in it's aftermath, FIGHT for their survival, for their existence, for their future, it's called genocide by those who were complicit in the initial destruction [yes it is, when you attempt to wipe out an ethnic group from your population]. How trite.
Ironically, when the world's biggest super-power invades and destroys a relatively defenseless country which was never proven to be a threat, it's called liberation [I'm with you on this one]. Where were said liberators during World War One? Too pre-occupied with land-grabbing in Anatolia, I suppose, to notice or even care about how many inhabitants of Asia Minor were dying, be they Turk or Armenian [yup and then after, in hopes of grabbing more land, they jumpped in bed with Turkey so they could use them to have a hold in the region, thus the price to pay their prostitues (Turkey) is to not recognize reality (the Armenian Genocide)].
Who in the world mourns or commemorates the deaths of the millions of Turks who fell during WWI? during the Wars of Independence? I'll tell you: Only Turks, and they're not in the habit of projecting their loss upon others or demanding apologies or propagating myths or sticking any of it up anyones ass or down anyones throat [because all those deaths were a direct result to their governments own actions, so no one owes them an apology but their govenrment].
April 24th... May it pass quickly [yea, for your type, it's nothing but a bad dream that you just want to wake up from].
Here's an "Action Alert" for my Turkish readers. Vote "YES" and please copy this to as many like-minded people as possible: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12412125/ [and for those who don’t want to see a debate over a crime that was proven in two courts of law, one in Turkey and the other in Germany, vote NO]
Just so this is not too long a read, here are some samples of comments to this post:
Gulay said...
"Blame who you want but primarily blame our Govt as they never seem to want to open the records and allow what really happened to be brought to light. I do agree with you though but hope that eventually the Armenian influence in the US will reduce like the IRA did for the Brits…. I know that Mustafa Kemal wanted National Unity but should that include elimination of minority culture, I believe that's not what he wanted and to me the problem is intolerance and too much focus on religion and ethnicity since 1938!! There were/are faults on both sides but once again the Turkish Govt is losing the PR war. Armenians have a country but they seem to want more, like the Greek Cypriots, that is MONEY. Open the vaults, let the historians in and lets get the real story of what happened…"
4/25/2006 1:00 AM
metin said...
The openness in which these and similar issues can be intelligently discussed is what's missing in Turkish politics. There are many taboo subjects yet in this day and age. Until freedom and democracy is truly exercised in Turkey, Armenians and others will have an excuse for whatever they wish to highlight. We need to eliminate these objections so the issues can be dealt with objectively.
4/25/2006 3:15 AM
Oguz said...
"I enjoyed reading this. However, I would like to quote law #36 from the '48 laws of power': "By acknowledging a petty problem you give it existence and credibility. The more attention you pay an enemy, the stronger you make him."
I realize that this a problem with no simple solution, but the moment we Turks mention past atrocities of other countries as a response to the Armenians, we are in effect giving them credibility, and unfortunately helping their cause.
Having said that, I did vote on the poll, and will tell my friends about it too. :)"
4/25/2006 5:21 AM
Celal said...
"…What is unfortunate is that perhaps some form of national recognition of the catastrophic dimensions surrounding the events of 1915 could have be acknowledged by the Turkish state had the Armenians not continued to play big power politics with this issue."
4/25/2006 6:03 AM
PJB said...
"…I believe the genocide happened. Sure, Turks were killed, too, but not a million of them, and not by the Armenians. It was almost a hundred years ago when Turkey was the Ottoman Empire. They need to live up to their past and live up to their history.
Turkey is poised to play a huge role on the world stage, if only they have the confidence to be as big as they are, with all the warts and skeleton-filled closets that every other major nation has.
No more censorship laws and no more stubborn denial."
4/25/2006 10:35 AM
Murat Altinbasak said...
"I've received a lot of e-mails on top of these comments already...Man... One thing is certain: Everyone marches to a different drum beat on this issue. No two PsOV are exactly compatible. It's not black and white, by any measure... Certainty number two: I agree with all of those who support the open and unfettered dialogue, namely in Turkey. As Pete points out, laws against "insulting Turkishness" need to go. "
4/25/2006 11:46 AM
Anonymous said...
"What would you do to Fatma Muge Gocek, Halil Berktay, Fikret Adanir, Taner Akcam, Elif Shafak and Orhan Pamuk for speaking if not on behalf of Armenians at least for democracy in Turkey? Are they bought by Armenians too? Or do they have Armenian blood in them? You guys can't even handle a fact that Ataturk's daughter may have been an orphaned Armenian, and want to make the rest of the world believe that Turks don't have hatred towards Armenians? Yeah right. "
4/26/2006 3:14 PM
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